INTERVIEW | HILARY GOODIER | GLOBAL TECHNOLOGY AND ALTERNATIVE LEGAL SERVICES

On behalf of The Legal Forecast, Vertika Batra recently had the pleasure of interviewing Hilary Goodier, Director of Alternative Legal Services and Global Technology* at Herbert Smith Freehills. In this interview, Hilary talks about her unique legal and technology background, her time at Harvard and how law firms can avoid the ‘shiny new toy syndrome’.

1. What did you want to be as a kid?

I don’t really remember but I do know that in high school and at uni, I really loved the business subjects. My ambition was never actually to be a lawyer. I did both a law and a commerce degree, did really well at law and then thought, well, I may as well get admitted. And the rest is history. I’ve always wanted to be a business person though, whatever that means. So that’s probably why I’ve ultimately ended up taking my career in the direction that I have - I’ve always just loved the business side.

2. Have you picked up a new hobby during isolation?

I don’t know if you could call it a hobby but I got a new puppy. He’s taking up a lot of my time. I got a little groodle. His name is Henry. He looks like a teddy bear. He’s very, very cute. I’ve also been honing my cooking skills. So I can now make a mean pizza from scratch. I’d never made a homemade pizza before, even making the dough, and now my family refuses to eat pizza from the pizza shop anymore and I have to make them. And I’m very, very close to perfecting my Sunday roast including the Yorkshire puddings.  

3. You have worked as a practising lawyer, general counsel, and technology company executive. What was the motivating factor for you to become Director of Alternative Legal Services and Global Technology at HSF?

It actually really came down to the fit. As you pointed out, my background is rather unique and they needed someone who was a lawyer, who knew technology and had experience running and growing a business. I think it was even more unique to find a role that required that kind of unique combination of skills. It was just such a great fit and it was the opportunity to leverage everything that I had done in my career to this point and then bring that to bear in the role with HSF. Initially, because I have worked in tech for so long, I never really contemplated going back into a law firm. That wasn’t something I was even thinking about before HSF gave me a call. It was pretty compelling though when you think, “Wow, well there’s a role that values my legal background, values my technology experience, values the fact that I have run a business.” So I thought I needed to give it a shot.   

4. What does your 'average' day look like? How has COVID-19 affected your work?

I don’t think that there is an average day at all. Particularly as I have 2 roles – I run the Australian business and I also run the Global Technology practice so I’m constantly having to pivot and change hats on any given day or hour of the day for that matter. They are both really big and really demanding roles and they both take up a lot of time. I think a good day is when I have the opportunity to be more forward-looking and to be more proactive rather than reactive. The more time that I can spend sitting in front of and listening to clients, the better. And I’m always really, really disciplined about making time for my team. No matter how busy I am my team knows that if you need me, you just need to reach out to me.

We’ve actually stayed pretty busy throughout COVID which has been good and I think it’s really important for team morale among other things. Particularly now that we’ve gone back in lockdown in Victoria for 6 weeks, it’s really important that the team is busy and engaged and have something really inspiring to do. We’ve seen a shift in the nature of some of the work we are doing, not surprisingly. And I think the reason that we’ve probably stayed busy is because we’ve been really adaptable in responding to that shift in the types of work that’s been coming our way. And of course, COVID has been a really great experiment in flexible working so it’s been very good for accelerating some of our digital projects that otherwise might have taken us years. And it’s also given the team more control and flexibility in managing their work and their home demands. I think the flip side of that is for many it’s been really isolating so as a leader and as a business we have had to be far more deliberate about how we connect and how we engage with our team and with individuals. Out of that, I think there are a lot of positives that we can actually takeaway from this experience and that I hope will translate when we get back into the office.  

5. Can you tell us more about the development of ALT as a function in its own right? What is the biggest commercial advantage that a law firm stands to gain by having a dedicated ALT team?

In ALT, we really use our expertise in delivering volume and data intensive legal services. We use a combination of experienced people, defined processes and technology to provide legal services in a more efficient and cost-effective manner. So a lot of the work that we do is discovery, document review, due diligence, commercial contract reviews, remediation and claims assessment work. The eDiscovery and Legal Tech team, which forms a part of ALT, is responsible for helping integrate technology into those services.

When we started, it was to support the lawyers and our practice groups in delivering their services to clients more efficiently. Now, one of the fastest growing areas for our ALT team is actually supporting clients directly. Clients really get the commercial opportunity that exists in the alternative legal services space but for the most part, they’re forced to look beyond their traditional panel firms and look at alternative solutions. The great opportunity for clients here is that with HSF they can still leverage our market-leading legal services but know the work is being delivered in the most efficient and cost-effective way possible by leveraging new technologies and leveraging our specialist ALT team. I actually think that’s been a real game-changer and a real differentiator for HSF in the Australian market. The clients don’t have to go looking anywhere else. They can get all of that from us.

6. What is the biggest mistake that law firms make when it comes to ALT and legal innovation?

My biggest bugbear is what I call the ‘shiny new toy syndrome’. Because legal technology, I think, in particular is such a new space, you have a lot of people running around, chasing the latest technologies without actually understanding the business or client problem that they’re trying to solve. For me, you must always start with the business or the client problem. Don’t try to reverse-engineer a cool piece of technology to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. That never works but it’s still pretty common.

7. You were one of only two women awarded the Chief Executive Women’s Harvard Disruptive Innovation Scholarship. What was that experience like? Are there any key learnings you would like to share?

Obviously, it was an amazing experience. I mean, it’s Harvard right? My key takeaway from that course was the sheer scale of disruption that’s facing the legal industry. We are at an industry-turning point. The disruption is not coming – it’s here. I really tested that with some of the professors as well who had worked in professional services and who had worked with law firms. When all is said and done, there’s going to be those firms that have recognised the change, that will lead the change, and there are going to be those who’ve missed the boat. You want to be on the boat.

8. What is the most significant change that you have assisted to bring about since you took up your position as Director of Alternative Legal Services and Global Technology?

I think how we think about and how we use technology has probably been my biggest contribution. There’s no doubt that there are savings and efficiencies that can be gained by having a lower-cost business model. But it’s not just about how we find lower-cost locations to provide services. It’s about how we scale human expertise through the use of technology for the benefit of the firm and our clients, and then how we monetise that.

9. In your view, how are legal tech and professional services firms changing the legal landscape? What does this mean for law firms? How does HSF stay ahead of the pack?

I think the Big Four are really strong in the multi-disciplinary space. If you look really closely, a lot of law firms are actually starting to make investments in complementary offerings so they can better compete in providing those holistic, multi-disciplinary solutions to clients. The legal tech vendors are really at the opposite end of the spectrum. They’re providing powerful, point solutions which can transform particular work types but they still need lawyers for the most part to power those. I don’t think we’ll ever be at the point where technology completely replaces lawyers. The way that HSF stays ahead of the pack, seeing that there’s competition at both ends of the spectrum, is starting with clients. We listen to what our clients are asking us for and then we design our solutions and we make our investments in response to that. You have to be constantly adapting to the needs of your clients.

10. We recently interviewed Susanna Kipping, Head of Legal Operations, Process & Automation at HSF. How does ALT work alongside the firm’s Legal Ops function to support clients with innovation and new thinking?

HSF has made a number of significant investments in recent years in its ALT function, its Legal Ops function and its Digital Law Group. All of these teams are incredibly complementary so the magic I think is in how we bring the best of the entire firm, including those teams but also including our legal teams, to bear for the benefit of our clients. We’ve got a recent example of where ALT and Legal Ops partnered up to assist a client with their in-house legal team transformation. Legal Ops brought their expertise in business analysis, process reengineering and design thinking, and ALT brought the solution and the technology expertise. So that was actually a really great project and the wealth of information that the client received from that really in-depth analysis of their work and the work that their team was doing was quite incredible.     

11. Have you noticed any trends in ALT and legal innovation in other countries, such as the United States and the APAC region?

In the US I think, not surprisingly, there’s a real appetite for scale solutions so managed services are probably more widespread in the US than elsewhere. In Australia and in the UK, we still focus a little bit more on the project or matter based end of the spectrum rather than managed services. The thing about APAC is that we are smaller and we are more nimble so we can be more responsive to change and I think we generally have more of an appetite for experimentation. APAC is generally seen to be one of the early adopters of new technologies, and not just necessarily limited to law. The UK has probably seen the greatest adoption of the captive alternative legal services model. I see the law firms in the UK as being a bit more open to making those investments and developing the capabilities themselves in-house rather than outsourcing it.

12. What is your advice for law students and early-career lawyers who are considering a career in ALT?

Get some tech subjects under your belt. You don’t have to know how to code but you do need to know how to use technology and you need to understand what benefits the technology can bring. The key thing to know is that first and foremost it’s about being a great lawyer. Don’t ever lose sight of the fact that clients are buying legal services. Everything that’s happening around legal tech and around alternative legal services is about knowing how to deploy people, process and technology to provide legal services in a more efficient and cost-effective manner – but they are still legal services.

13. What is your legal forecast? Where will the legal industry be in ten years?

I think the combination of the disruption that the industry is currently facing and COVID means that we are going to see some consolidation, particularly in BigLaw. I also think that there will be some serious consolidation in the legal tech space. There’s a real opportunity for end-to-end rather than point solutions. It’s going to be really interesting to see what the likes of Thomson Reuters and DocuSign are going to do in that space. I think in the future there is going to be zero appetite from clients for doing things ‘the old way’. It’s kind of modernise or die. The number one thing for me is that I think NewLaw will become mainstream and is no longer going to be ‘alternative’. I actually can’t wait until we dispense with the alternative badge. These are not alternative legal services anymore. These are mainstream and highly competitive legal services.  

*Since interviewing Hilary she has moved on from her role at HSF and is taking a short break with little Henry at her house in country Victoria. When we asked Hilary what was next she was tight lipped - she did hint though that she was excited for her next move. We are sure that wherever she lands it will be with impact and we can’t wait to follow her on her next chapter.